Gary Renard and Cindy Lora-Renard: Pure non-duality and Trust in Holy Spirit as the Foundation for Quantum Forgiveness and Sustainable Peace

Hi this is Bruce Rawles and I’m speaking again today with Gary Renard and Cindy Lora-Renard.
This is always a joy to do and I’m so glad to be with you again and looking forward to our
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conversation; so welcome Gary and Cindy!

Thank you Bruce thank you for having us again and we always enjoy our
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conversations with you always very much likewise we go back pretty far doing

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these podcasts with you yeah yeah 2007 or something like that

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I think yeah yeah gosh yeah you know I just uh put a picture at Facebook of us

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must have been about 11 years ago yeah uh you Cindy and me Mikey L and we are

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at a conference and uh it just reminded me how far we go back uh so many years at least 16 17 something like that yeah

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yeah I I remember you gave a couple of uh presentations and Medford and Ashland and uh and those are pivotal wonderful

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yeah yeah and in the illusion that feels like a whole another lifetime I mean

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when I think of you know those workshops going back to you know Northern

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California Oregon those areas it just feels like that could have been a memory

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from a past life yeah it’s just time is very strange to me these days it I say

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to G very often that my sister and I always say this to each other we’re feeling the dream we’re feeling the

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dream just because time doesn’t feel the same as it used to it really doesn’t

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feel like you would think it should feel so it’s very off for me something that

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may have happened two weeks ago sometimes feels like you know six months

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ago it’s very surreal isn’t it very surreal because time’s relative it’s not it’s

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holographic as we know there’s no linear time frame anyway there’s no time but

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I’ve been really experiencing it that way just off not like you would think

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you would feel it and uh especially this particular year and I always joke that

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every year at the beginning of the year I always say the same thing like oh I can’t believe it’s a new year already

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time seems to go so fast but I really mean this year felt like only a month or

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two have has passed and it’s already October and I I just I don’t know it

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just U the course does speak to that just briefly about a Celestial

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speedup um you know and I do believe that’s happening and everybody

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experiences that their perception of that may be differently but in my perception the way I’m proceeding that

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is there’s a speed up going on because we can skip you know we can skip

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intervals as of course says time collapses for us when we forgive you know so I think I’m experiencing some of

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that on occasion so but with with awareness you know and it’s fascinating

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it really is it does it does seem like the more we pay attention to what our our thoughts are and and look at the

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look at the judgments and then forgive them um you know the the more surreal time becomes and the more

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um bizarre what we call reality seems to be you know sure does sure does I I

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don’t know if if you feel that too um do you feel that on occasion oh yeah time

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intervals just yeah it’s just kind of wonky seems like it goes yeah back and

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forth but um yeah but I um love our topic for today

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because the course is all about pure nondualism you know that there’s only

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one reality you know and that’s made very clear at the very beginning in the

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preface you know that there’s a distinction between truth and illusion um he makes that very

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clear and what you were calling Quantum forgiveness which is the course’s you

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know true forgiveness teachings is really what gets us there

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to that experience and to create a

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more joyful inner world for ourselves more peaceful we can sustain our peace and

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our joy um and a way that is lasting more

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lasting than if we weren’t practicing this kind of true forgiveness um I don’t think Gary and I

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have done any event where we have not mentioned true

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forgiveness you know the way the course teaches it I think every single event we’ve always done because that’s the

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meat of the course is is really undoing the ego through you know accepting the

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atonement for ourselves which is part of forgiveness recognizing nothing happened

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so I’ll let Gary speak for a minute I’m just all of a sudden just felt like I got on a roll because I love I get so

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excited and passionate about the course but I do have something I want to touch on in little bit okay relevant to this

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the topic we’re talking about but go ahead Gary I felt like I had to open with h excitement my excitement here oh

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it’s okay I enjoy I enjoy listening to you

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yeah uh you know most of the time I don’t even feel like I’m you know

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here uh in the world it really is very much like a dream but then the world

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keeps trying to suck me back in you know drag me back in reminds me of this uh

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movie Godfather Part three alucino he say I thought I was out and they keep dragging me back

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in so who you can almost feel it trying to suck you back in and of course we

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know the ego will come up with uh you know 101,000 ways to convince you that a

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trailer at least try to and especially uh the last oh three and a

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half years or so I’m writing a fifth book with art in person we talked about all

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these crazy things that have gone on especially since the beginning of the uh pandemic because at the beginning of

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2020 everybody was optimistic oh this is going to be the Roaring 20s of you know the last century and you know just the

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greatest decade the greatest year and and here in Hollywood everybody was so optimistic and it was G to be so

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wonderful then of course the crap hits the fan and changes everything and if

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there’s one thing we can depend on in this world is that it’s going to change in fact that maybe the only thing that

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we been depend on in this world is that it won’t be the same and uh so we’ve

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been talking about all these things and looking back on it because I had to you know right about it the last uh three

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and a half years have been even more bizarre than uh anything before it I

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think I mean you know I’m not comparing our problems to the kinds of problems that people had in the 1930s 1940s but

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still uh it’s been pretty out there and uh it’s so easy to get dragged in and

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look at the screen and say oh that’s the problem there or that person is the

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problem you know like the uh the war that just broke out in h the mid East

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it’s so easy everybody’s got a reason you know each side has a reason of

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course they always do and and uh it’s so easy to pick sides and it’s so easy to make it

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real and uh what we have to do is just take a step back and say you

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know what is that but uh separation you what would the cor say that classic

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example of Separation but the world doesn’t think of it that way you know it’s just oh that’s what happened and

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there’s a reason for it and all that but it’s just separation over and over again

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played out acted out you know from from Death to even birth although people

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don’t think of it that and uh it’s uh it’s been a really crazy time and so we

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as course students need to just say wait a minute and uh remember that what we’re saying is not true and that if we’re

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blaming one person or one side it’s because we have chosen to see what we

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secretly believe about ourselves those secret sins and hidden hates that the course talks about we chose to see it in

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that person even the guilt at one point the course says about the teacher of God

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what he sees is his own guilt seen as being outside of

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him so uh you know whether I I’m mad at Putin for invading Ukraine or or some

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other world situation uh his insanity is my Insanity that I feel because I was

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stupid enough to separate myself uh from God or at least I thought I did and we

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know now that that’s impossible but uh you know that’s what I’ve chosen to see

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so that the guilt and the stupidity and everything else can be in him instead of me and that’s also true of American

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politicians who I don’t like I’ve chosen to see my stupidity in them and so it doesn’t even

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matter what side you’re on it’s just you’ve chosen to see whatever you

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secretly believe about yourself in that person that you don’t like and that you are judging but the course

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gives us a way out it gives us a way home she does absolutely and even just

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the whole premise of there being sides you know is a non or a dualistic premise

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oh yeah and and basically without challenging that assumption um you know forgiveness is

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impossible yeah right because as as long as long as we think that there’s two

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sides and and and that this separation happened making two sides possible then

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you know everything we do will then be just a you know forgiveness to destroy or forgiveness to keep the separation

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real basically yeah yeah yeah and I was gonna say uh you know seeing

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The Duality and changing your mind uh to non Duality is something that you can uh

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practice so much that it becomes almost uh automatic yes certainly sometimes you have to work

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more at it than other times but I think the more you do it uh the more you get to the point where the holy spirit is in

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charge of your unconscious mind and the more you want to do the ego the uh

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miracles of uh true forgiveness become almost automatic you know we we just do

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it automatically when you get that point it gets a lot easier because uh you know what everything is for and it’s very

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difficult for the ego to throw you curve balls because uh you just know that it’s gonna do that and you’re ready that

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state of Miracle Readiness that it talks about in those first 50 Miracles principles it’s like you know I get up

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in the morning put the holy spirit in charge and you know I know Uh

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something’s gonna happen yeah I mean it always does and whatever it is I’m kind of

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ready because you know it’s not that I’m expecting something bad to happen I know that something bad is going to happen

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and uh you know but not all day so when there’s nothing to forgive hey that

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that’s the fun part and you can have a good time uh the course says you should

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celebrate and I have nothing against that and when uh you know the world

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slaps you in the face and uh you know what it’s for well

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you can do it pretty fast and I think that uh you just get better and better at it the more you practice and that’s

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like anything else except I think it’s especially important with forgiveness and I think that the people who do it

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are the people who really want the results uh they really want to go home

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to God when they say I want the peace of God they mean it and that’s not for everybody you know

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we’re always all of us are preoccupied with the world at first and uh it’s I

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think a very interesting process to switch to wanting to be with God instead

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of wanting what the course would call all the Glitters in the dream of course the irony is you can

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have both but uh you can have both or neither I don’t think that you can have

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uh God and the world uh without you know recognizing God as your Source that’s

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the only way to make a meaningful choice so that’s the only reality and then you can be in the world like okay it’s uh a

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place where I’m like an actor and I’m playing the part of Gary but I know that

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I’m not Gary you because you know we live in Hollywood we know actors and most of them they don’t confuse

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themselves with being uh the part that they’re playing in the movie uh you know well a couple of them

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probably too but most of the time right most of the time and uh I try not to to confuse

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myself with being uh the Gary uh that I’m playing the part of it’s uh such a

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temporary thing when you think about it it’s almost silly although as you’re saying that I was thinking J this is the

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perfect time of year for for realizing we’re in costume we’re playing Halloween dress up

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all year long and just forgetting that that we’re doing that basically forgetting we’re putting our have our

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masks on yeah y yeah yeah I I have a chapter in my third book is now called

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and the Oscar goes too because we’re playing our roles so well we all deserve an Oscar for how well we’re playing our

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madeup roles on the stage of life and um

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I you brought up something Bruce a little bit earlier that reminded me of a

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of a lesson that I just wanted to comment on on the workbook lesson 12

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which is really revent um to what’s happening um as a way of looking at the

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world and what’s happening in the world right now and that lesson Lesson 12 is I am upset because I see a meaningless

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world and I only wanted to read just a few um short you know sentences from

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this and then comment on it uh because I think it’s a really important part of forgiveness and and remembering how we

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can choose to see world events or whatever is playing out on the screen of life and so the first few sentences say

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the I’m well I’m upset because I see a meaningless world the importance of this

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idea lies in the fact that it contains a correction for a major perceptual

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Distortion you think that what upsets you is a frightening world or a sad

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world or a violent world or an insane world like how often do we find

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ourselves saying this world is crazy this world is insane but it’s saying we’re really upset because we see a

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meaningless World y and and we’re placing these judgments on the world

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instead of just shifting when the course is all about not even judging the world

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at all as good or bad this lesson is basically saying none of it is true so

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if none of it’s true it’s just meaningless because it wasn’t created by God which means you know we can come

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back to our minds and remain in a place of neutrality about it be the Observer Y

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and say if we’re if we’re going to play the game of good and bad we say well this is good it makes the world just as

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real because that means there has to be something bad just as if the world we see a satisfying world that implies an

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unsatisfying world and we’re stuck in Duality again yep so he just it’s a two-sided coin of Special Love and

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special hate but it’s the same coin the same point and and then and I just like the way he says this he says be sure

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that you do not alter the time intervals between applying today’s idea to what

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you think is pleasant and what you think is unpleasant for the purposes of these exercises there’s no difference between

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them and then he just goes on to say finally you know what is meaningless is neither good nor bad why then should a

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meaningless World upset you if we’re looking at it that way not getting trapped into the good or bad game um

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finally if you accept the world as meaningless and let the truth be written upon it for you it would make you

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indescribably happy I love that because it reminds us it’s

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our own judgments upon ourselves and the world that makes the world real or not

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or gives it meaning or not you know we give the world all the meaning that it has and I know this is not easy to

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practice in situations where we you know see what most of the world would judges

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upsetting events but here the course is just giving us another way if anybody is

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listening to this and need even maybe new to the course a bit it’s just giving us another way to look to observe what’s

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in front of your our faces there really is another way of thinking about the

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world and we can remain in that neutral place if we just

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remember you know that if God didn’t create this world that means it doesn’t

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exist because what he creates is eternal and but let’s not fall into

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level confusion either and pretend that we don’t see you know people’s you don’t

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have compassion if people are suffering including ourselves of course so we want to have compassion for ourselves and

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others if there’s suffering horrific events going on we can you know play our

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roles the best we can to be compassionate practice forgiveness but at the same time in our own minds we can

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remember come back to that place of neutrality and remember that what I am seeing is not true I really am

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dreaming and practice forgiveness and that’s the whole meat the juice you know

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of the course is changing our perceptions absolutely as you’re saying that I’m kind of reminded of a metaphor

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that that came to mind a while ago that I I’ve been finding useful is I’m thinking of how the Holy Spirit sees the

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ego and how the ego sees the Holy Spirit I’m picturing Ken wapnick wonderful metaphysical chart and I’m kind of like

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if if you can imagine like a one-way mirror that is between those two thought systems and the the ego is is a dark

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thought system but it has a mirror that reflects its Darkness back onto itself so it can’t see anything on the other

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side of that oneway mirror into the holy spirit’s light which would basically dissolve

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it right but but so the darkness is there’s nothing there but it’s

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reflecting the nothing back to itself but the Holy Spirit can see through the other direction see that there’s nothing

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there and therefore isn’t disturbed by it oh it’s very good yeah yeah so it’s

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like well there there’s actually a line in in uh in the the Christian Bible where says the light shines in the

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darkness and the Darkness comprehends it not I think that kind of fits with that you know it’s like you know that that

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that inner kindness teacher in our mind it seems like that says you can forgive this but you first have to look at all

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the specifics all the particulars see how the ego wants to inflate the nothing that that seems to

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be there into some big deals you know the special loves the special hates the the Grievances the whole gamut of things

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that that you know obviously we don’t want to just dismiss because they’re the classroom but but once we see them as

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they are and then kind of drag them through that one-way mirror out into the holy spirit’s light it’s like oh now

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that I see from that perspective that wasn’t such a big deal but I but I have to be willing to look at each specific

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right important part y looking it’s so important to look Den not to not repress

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it or deny it yeah our experience but to be able to see it the only way to bring

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it to the truth to the light exactly all you have to do is uh notice it you know

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it’s like you don’t have toh dwell on it but you certainly don’t want to analyze

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it which just makes it more real exactly and I need to write a PhD paper on it or

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anything just right right I love what uh Jesus said to Helen once you know can

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find light by analyzing the darkness that’s a pretty uh smartass thing to say

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to a psychoanalyst guess that’s what they do and of course she was a research

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psychologist but she also did uh you know therapy on the slide and uh yeah

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you know the more you analyze something I never thought of that until the course the more you analyze something you’re just making it real you’re giving it uh

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your meaning uh instead of the Holy Spirit which would say that you know

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it it’s nothing so uh yeah a lot of it is just remembering to not make it real

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yeah yeah because if you’re making it real well that’s judgment and it stays

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with you forever and uh so I I like to uh just

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think okay if I start to even get a little bit upset uh that’s the big red flag that

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you have to watch out for it doesn’t have to be anger it doesn’t have to be obvious even if you just feel a little

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uncomfortable it’s really all the same according to the course that’s the time you need to uh just say okay I must have

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been making it real because if I wasn’t making it real I wouldn’t be

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upset yeah so I must have chosen wrongly because I’m not at peace

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exactly Yeah Boy the course has a way of putting things I I didn’t realize till a few

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years ago how attached just to give a personal

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example I know personal examples can be helpful sometimes so sure I just remember when I was going through a just

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one little body thing after another was coming up you know issue you know and um

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I didn’t realize I had to look like we’re talking about and go how real I was making the body I didn’t realize how

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attached I was to the body identification and to all this stuff

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started you know happening you know with the body and then I had to do my homework I had to really step up my game

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and practice you know what we teach I know that you learn what you teach and

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there’s no accidents there but I I had to step up my game and really choose the

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strength of of the Holy Spirit and the strength of Christ in certain moments of

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those times I know a lot of people could relate to this with whatever things they might be going through um but that’s

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really the work is to to notice when we do get upset we feel afraid or anxious

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or whatever it may be so that really look at it but there’s a way of looking

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at it you know with the Holy Spirit and not to forget to invite the holy spirit

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in to be an observer you know with us so we’re not doing it on our own as a very

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important component to undoing and to being in that place where you can get it

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to be above the Battleground where you can be with the Holy Spirit looking at it from a different perspective you know

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so I myself you know I always don’t claim to be you know a perfect human

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being although for many years I thought I had to I felt like I had to put on this

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Persona of oh everything is perfect and I had to put on that face that mask

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because I’m a course teacher but I’m also a student so I had to step back and

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and re-evaluate just look at things and remind myself with the holy spirit’s

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help um really putting into practice um all these years what we’ve been teaching

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and I I think it’s important to share this as a course teacher too because

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just because we’re course teachers doesn’t mean we’re not students also that if we assume we just know

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everything we’ve got everything all 100% figured out all the time but we’re never going to make mistakes we have to be

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perfect we’re falling into the same trap you know of you know that that

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perfection game that somehow that look we all make mistakes and we will until

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the ego is undone and it’s okay you know we can forgive ourselves for that you know and uh and by forgiveness again it

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just means we’re forgiving ourselves for buying into the belief that we’re

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something we’re not right that that we’ve really separated from God we made up our own personality Persona this

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whole game of life is a madeup idea or concept so none of it’s true and it’s

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not really me it’s not really you so we can come back to that mindset that

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reminds us that well I remain as God created me that’s what the course is telling me and if I remain as God

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created me it’s impossible to be guilty of

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anything so we’re ultimately forgiving guilt this unconscious guilt that we

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believe that we’re guilty over the separation and it always can come back to that although the guilt can uh play

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itself out and different and make it look like we are feeling bad or upset um

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about a billion different things but there’s only one course is saying there’s only one problem you know and we

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it’s it’s it’s the guilt over believing um that we pulled off The Impossible by

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separating from God’s love and so when we when we really look at that thought and bring that thought to the light of

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Truth the holy spirit’s answer it says you’re still at home in

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God nothing happened not one note in Heaven’s song was missed just because we took that tiny man idea made it real for

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an instant Heaven’s song it just kept on

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going reality kept on going didn’t miss and although it’s not easy to practice

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that I always like to encourage just keep encouraging people to not give up

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on it because the more and more we just train the mind we need mind training and

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the more we train the mind by catching ourselves when we do tend to kind of go

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down that spiral let the ego right take over and dominate we can catch that

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sooner the sooner we can work at the Mind level and change our mind about it

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yeah so when you mentioned spiral and then Al a few minutes ago getting stuck

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and it kind of reminded me of a conversation I had yesterday with a a fellow course student teacher uh Stefan Bolz

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I don’t know if you’re familiar his work. Anyway, he brought up the analogy of of quicksand I thought that’s interesting

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because when you’re in quicksand the the worst thing you can do is thrash around because that

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just sinks you down further but if you can just stop and just kind of like spread eagle kind of

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thing and that’s the the best thing you can do and when you find yourself stuck

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in the ego thought system or appearing to be stuck and I was thinking well that’s that’s a pretty good metaphor

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because at that point if you watch your thoughts without condemning yourself but

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just kind of watch there you know and wait for help which is always there

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metaphorically with holy spirit’s metaphoric hand um you know it’s it’s sort of like

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doing a freeze frame and then watching the ego fumble the ball you know in

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slowmo and and just say you know that has had no impact on my real being and

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that I think that’s the holy spirit’s you know counsel every moment it’s like no nothing happened here but if you just

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watch this with me we can see that nothing happened and then then you can you know we can pull you out of this

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thing by the way just add to a couple of things that Cindy said when it comes

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being a teacher uh first of all the course says that a teacher of God is anyone who

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chooses to be one so if you choose to be a teacher of God you’re a teacher of God

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you don’t have to get H permission from anybody you don’t have to ask uh the

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course of Miracles please if you can be you know teacher of God but the course

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also says that to teach is to demonstrate so it’s very clear that you don’t have to take on a traditional

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teaching role you don’t have to get up in front of people like Cindy and I and uh speak to them I remember in my first

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book ardan person told me that it would be possible they weren’t recommending it but they said it would be possible for

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me to go through my entire life do a course of Miracles and never tell

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anybody and there were a couple times I was tempted to do that uh I uh my

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original intention was to publish the book uh anonymously to put on a a

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different name on uh the book because it seemed to recall something about broken glass and you know pre like we won’t go

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there exactly so if you don’t want to tell anybody you don’t have and uh you know

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certain events and certain advice from them and the Holy Spirit did lead me uh to get out there and take on a more

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traditional uh teaching role and the reason that I’m glad that I did really has nothing to do

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with uh the public persona it’s uh like Cindy said uh you learn what you

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teach right and I really feel that I’ve learned the course much better

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especially the last you know 20 years I’ve been doing it for 30 but last F I been out there and I really feel that I

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learned the course much better by repeating it over and over and over again you can say that again yeah made

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it more real for me say it again say it again yeah so uh it really is true and I

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do feel like I’ve learned uh what I teach it was the right thing for me to do for

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me and you know if it helped anybody else and that’s even better yes thank

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you for that that repetition is such a huge thing because you know like you you in your in your work have said you know

31:54

you can’t hear right-minded ideas too of of I mean it’s really it’s so helpful isn’t it yeah yeah and by the way I

32:00

never would learned those uh right-minded ideas without you know some very big help you know from whether

32:08

there ardin persa you mentioned uh Ken wapnick you know there’re just a few sources that have really helped me and

32:15

you know who what helps is each other yes yes yes we talk to each other right

32:22

everybody whoever’s listening when we actually have meaningful conversations really joining I mean real joining

32:30

having these kind of conversations we don’t always need like some teacher to talk to to get it’s each other that we

32:36

learn from absolutely Lear from each other I just I don’t know that just came as a hit that wait a minute we can’t get

32:44

home without each other right yeah and the humor that’s is

32:49

obvious in the course too I think a lot of times I used to read the course by myself and occasionally I noticed like

32:55

well is there is there a little lampooning of the ego going on but when you read it out loud in a study group or in a class it’s like it just kind of

33:02

jumps off the page it’s like how how absolutely off-the-wall nuto insane is

33:08

everyone’s ego and and Jesus is lampooning the the absurdity of that

33:14

thought system not in any kind of mean-spirited way whatsoever but just saying how silly is that and how the

33:20

needless suffering that and and sense of sacrifice that we’re all imposing on oursel when you know and any moment we

33:28

could just say I’m not upset for the reason I think I could see peace instead of this you know right that’s yeah

33:35

exactly and I I want to go back to your that analogy of the quicksand that is a great

33:41

analogy about you know we tend to fight we for our survival fighting for the ego

33:48

is fighting for its survival and when we’re in quicksand yeah if we’re tend to thrash around and it makes it worse when

33:55

we’re fighting it um and I understand what that feels like yeah to fight you

34:01

go and I remember I had a dream you know a while back where I was F I was in a

34:07

car driving and I was uh Gary was with me it was really interesting because um

34:14

somehow we we started driving over very uh flooded Waters it the street was

34:21

flooded and somehow I think you got out of the car or got out but I

34:27

I was stuck in the car and I started the car started sinking the car

34:33

started and I felt in that moment like I

34:38

needed to fight for my survival because I was about to die you know in the dream this is a while back I didn’t have this

34:44

just last night but this was a little while back but um and I remember

34:50

thinking I actually felt what it might have felt like to think oh my God just

34:57

if I if I just surrendered because I felt like I was just about I felt like what it would feel like if you’re about

35:03

to just this is your time of passing this is your time of passing and it was a strange

35:09

feeling um because there are two ways to look at that you can fight

35:15

it or you can just surrender and trust and you know not that you’re not

35:22

going to try to save yourself if you’re in a situation where you’re you know of course you are if you’re in a situation

35:28

where your car is you know in a flooded situ of course you’re going to try to help yourself but I mean it’s a very

35:34

interesting position the dream showed me to be in when you are faced with a

35:41

choice of either kind of surrender to it or do you try to fight something try to

35:48

battle it try to battle the ego and um in that particular

35:54

dream I woke up but I after though I was still I woke up

36:01

before I kind of finished that idea that gosh of the fighting part I just woke up

36:08

but I woke up and I go oh my God that’s a strange feeling to feel like you’re

36:13

about to let go of this world like you’re yeah and so my point

36:21

being the reason I brought that up is that we often find ourselves fighting

36:27

for these bodies we fight for our survival when the truth is look whenever

36:34

it’s our time we’re all gonna appear to pass from this world we’re all gonna die even though we don’t really die we’re

36:39

all gonna pass from this world and the reason for our passing could be a number of reasons there’s a gazillion ways that

36:47

we could pass from this world and we don’t need to fight the idea that we’re going to leave this world because we’re

36:54

not really here anyway there’s no reason to really fight for survival at the Mind

37:00

level at the Mind level um but in the dream it’s important to remember I think

37:07

there’s some confusion sometimes it doesn’t mean we’re not going to to look watch after ourselves be careful right

37:15

you pay you care for because that’s having compassion for yourself you know if we’re you know sick we might go to

37:22

the doctor or seek some form of therapy or help and that’s perfectly normal in a

37:27

dream when we’re in B you know appear to be in bodies yep yep so I wanted to point that out to make that distinction

37:33

that you know if there’s one thing that’s gonna happen is we’re all gonna appear to pass from this world and we

37:40

don’t have to face that idea nothing wrong with the magic right yeah but magic either I was I was thinking about

37:46

that wonderful uh well so much in all of your books Gary but the in the fourth book the lifetime when Buddha had uh a

37:54

son that was Jesus I don’t recall the names but anyway that that they didn’t take very good care of their bodies and

37:59

so they just kind of had a short Lifetime and there you know that was it kind of thing because I didn’t that

38:06

didn’t concern there’s nothing wrong with taking your body care of your body so they last a little longer but but just not to make that the big deal the

38:13

big end uh when Cindy was talking about that I was thinking this a very funny

38:18

movie uh by Seth McFarland called A Million Ways to Die in the

38:23

West and it is a riot it is so funny because it shows how ludicrous uh this

38:30

world is with all the different things that can happen to you you know and if we take the body seriously uh it’s

38:37

something to worry about but he just points out how bizarre and how ridiculous it is uh you know there’s

38:44

just so many different ways to die and for things to go wrong and it’s all a

38:49

setup of course but we don’t know that and uh so that’s that’s very funny it kind of lightens up the subject I

38:56

recommend that movie yeah that that’s really funny very funny movie and oh and Bruce a poem came across my attention

39:06

recently where I I just happened to no accident fall upon this website where

39:12

you were talking about Charles C Finn in his poem Oh yes right listen don’t be

39:18

fooled my saying yeah don’t be Fool by me listen to what I’m not saying yeah that’s a great poem is that a wonderful

39:24

poem yes I wanted to bring it up for whoever’s listening to if you I recommend reading that poem by Charles C

39:31

Finn isn’t it I think that’s something like that yeah yeah it’s been a while since I’ve but yeah what I’m not saying

39:37

or I’ll put a link in the in the blog post yeah I think it’s a fabulous poem I think that man and he’s probably in his

39:44

early 80s by now um he wrote that in 1966 before the course was public and he

39:50

had something he had the right idea there of how he was expressing yeah you know um the ego

39:57

and fear and how we all can feel at times we’re thinking with the ego I just

40:02

recommend it for people it’s very profound I read in our online class the oh great great yeah but I happened to

40:08

see it was part of your blog and I didn’t even know that you you know I had just Googled and found it and because it

40:15

was something that I was in a program called creative Dynamics back in the early 70s and that came up in that

40:21

program and it was you know part of the curriculum that I was studying and and I just thought it was really you know

40:27

thoughtful and and points out that you know the facade of you know everyone is

40:32

fighting a hard battle Yeah you know and then what like what you were saying earlier is like the beginning um right

40:37

before the rules for decision in Chapter 30 this you you don’t fight yourself and we’re all fighting

40:43

ourselves and that’s why you know it’s it’s an exhausting you know innovating

40:48

process but we need to exonerate ourselves that that word came up in an NPR uh interview listen to the other day

40:55

you know for through impossible crime that no one could commit including ourselves right that’s that’s the

41:01

quantum forgiveness isn’t it seeing that nothing could possibly happen in truth to to to diminish and or um disturb our

41:10

perfect innocence in any way so we don’t need to have a face of Innocence where it’s a partial thing we just need to

41:15

recognize that everyone’s innocent in order for the the we they Paradigm to to dissolve right yeah it’s so important to

41:23

go over that and true forgiveness and ab really means we’re really healing

41:29

ourselves letting go of you know being a prisoner of our own minds and we forgive that way and see everybody as the same

41:36

we’re all part of equal part of God doesn’t matter who it is and that it’s

41:43

impossible that anybody or anything outside of us could do something to US

41:48

unless we give them permission you know and so we’re doing this to ourselves and

41:54

that’s who who wants to hear that that we’re doing this we that we’re doing

42:00

this to ourselves no matter how vicious I we can even think of and I want to say

42:06

this in the most compassionate way and I mean this in the most compassionate way but let’s use an example like the war

42:12

right now is really which one I know which one what day of the week is many

42:17

thousands upon thousands war is war period no matter whose side is fighting

42:22

who war is war and and if we can compassionately look at this now

42:29

particular War it’s not different than any other war in content because the battle ultimately

42:37

can be traced back to the ego thinking it has to battle God it has to battle

42:43

you know got to fight for its survival each side has to fight for its survival and until we have which I

42:51

totally agree with arttin person saying the course says but until we have inner peace

42:56

we work on our own inner peace we’re always going to perceive a world of

43:01

battle yep but we have to starts with ourselves we can’t expect other people

43:07

to to we can’t fix their dreams even they’re not really there but we tend to

43:12

want to fix the dream and change the dream we need to change our own minds

43:18

about our own inner battle and when we do that we can then be an

43:23

example that you know of healed healer you know of healed healer that that is

43:29

starting to and sees with correct perception that all battles are first W and lost in the mind it starts in the

43:36

mind you know what you just said Cindy kind of REM reminded me of that tendency

43:43

to want to fix other people’s stuff um I I I think I find that if I’m doing that

43:49

I’m forgetting that I’ve got my my dream repair technician hat on and I actually so now I’ve got another

43:56

adjective of recovering dream repair technician and and you know one of my favorite one of my favorite quotes from

44:03

the course lately you know because every you know few months I get I’m the kind of guy I’ll see a quote and it’ll stick

44:09

with me for a while until I really get it and uh one of the ones I’ve been thinking about lately is it says uh the

44:16

alertness of the ego to the errors of other egos is not the kind of vigilance

44:22

the Holy Spirit would have you maintain exactly exactly yeah that kind of like stops shoting your tracks right there if

44:29

you remember that exactly that’s such a great one yeah it’s sort of like the idea that if I another thing I find

44:36

helpful when I remember it is that and this is really practical is if

44:41

I can remember that I’m the only one that needs to wake up everyone else has already been you know partying in heaven

44:47

waiting for me patiently to get with the program and if I canot concern myself

44:53

with anyone else’s you know forgive trajectory path curriculum whatever I’ll

44:59

be doing just fine just minding my own uh you know forgiveness classroom yeah

45:05

yeah that’s that’s there is some humor to this you know really is that said okay F I

45:13

realize that I’m the one that you know everybody’s home we’re all home in God

45:18

you know dreaming right so we’re all home in Gods so if I’m annoyed or or

45:25

upset you know I forget that I’m still with everyone else that as one we’re home in God who needs the

45:32

healing you know well the only one left is me I guess I better I gu the only one

45:38

and we keep course say we keep thinking that there are really people out there

45:43

on the screen doing things to us that in other words we’re at the effect of them

45:49

yeah and that and that and that but this world is an effect it’s not the cause of anything uh Bruce you remember uh you

45:56

mentioned zingers you know zingers in the chorus and the humor uh and I get a kick out of them I really do like she’s

46:03

you know this this will tell you what Jesus thinks of our careers our so-called careers uh he’s talking in the

46:10

hero of the dream he’s talking about uh you know the these things that uh we want to get and then he says about uh

46:17

most people they work to get them doing senseless things and that’s about what

46:24

he thinks about our grand uh paper strips and metal discs and all I synchronistically I’m I’m turned to it

46:30

right here how’s that for mindes are Jo Andia you know it’s the whole thing is

46:37

uh senseless yeah we’re trying to make sense of the senseless yep yeah isn’t it

46:43

yeah I remember um I won’t say any names here just to keep people’s privacy but

46:48

come on but but and so keep private but but I remember that um we came across

46:55

once a young person um pretty young

47:01

and this young person we have a lot of young people by the way that that come

47:06

to our workshops and they they are very Advanced you know I mean I’m talking

47:12

they could be 12 or 13 years old um even younger sometimes we’ve had I’ve seen before even younger than that very

47:19

Advanced you know beings here um but anyway I

47:24

remember uh this Young Person’s mother was talking

47:29

about you know how she was trying to solve an issue a problem she was having

47:35

and her daughter was was with her and her daughter you know was

47:42

was I think she understood a lot of A Course in Miracles you know at a very young age and um so she was listening to

47:50

her mother talk about all these ways of trying to solve her problem and she said to her mother

47:56

mommy is this is this your plan for

48:03

salvation is this your plan for I’m thinking here’s this like young like

48:08

that is like something that most adults don’t wouldn’t even say to someone like is this your plan for salvation which

48:16

which told me she understood what salvation really meant like because like

48:23

is this your plan and so the mother was stopped in her tracks and had to just

48:28

laugh and go oh my gosh and so let’s not underestimate the power of our young

48:35

people to and what we can learn from them you know and everyone can be a

48:40

mirror right anybody be miror you as you’re sharing that I was thinking about oh a couple of

48:47

decades ago at least now um and uh my wife when I wife when I had first gotten

48:53

together and got married um she she looked at the course a little bit for a while and and uh and I I started um

49:01

going getting into this political thing uh a sovereignty based kind of thing and I was going down this road that was not

49:06

making me happy but I felt by golly this is what I needed to be doing and at one point when I got just far enough that I

49:14

I was about to jump into metaphoric quicksand uh she kind of stopped me you

49:20

know Flack between the you know the eyebrows and and uh said uh Bruce would

49:26

you rather be right or happy and I was like okay where have I heard that before

49:32

and it was like it just was a perfect thing that she said to me and it was like okay thank you for that course

49:38

correction yeah I just need just L pun intended in the course correction oh I that was just just what I needed to hear

49:45

so yeah beautiful example great love it that’s great by the way uh what Cindy was saying about young people uh I’ve

49:52

seen a big change the last 20 years just so in uh the Dynamics of the crowds that

49:59

come to the workshops I remember my first workshop 20 years ago I would say

50:05

it was 90% women and uh mostly older

50:10

women uh today it’s not unusual to have like you know 40% men instead of 10% and

50:18

instead of all older people it’s all ages now uh including uh people well a

50:23

lot of people in the 20s but younger sometimes uh I like to think that the

50:29

disparen of the universe had something to do with that yeah and uh it’s like

50:34

it’s really changed and in a good way and when we go to Asia it’s even younger it’s like everybody seems to be in their

50:41

20s or yeah but I think uh I think they like uh the course because it’s first of all

50:48

it’s radical uh secondly they’re tired of uh their uh parents

50:53

world and their politics and uh their beliefs they can see that it’s not

50:58

working for them anyway it may work for their parents but they can see it’s not working for them we go to countries like

51:05

uh I was shocked when we went to South Korea they just work themselves uh to death you know it’s like that’s all they

51:11

do and they make their children go to school it’s like they they don’t have a

51:16

childhood it’s like uh nothing but work and uh so there’s a bit of a rebellion

51:22

going on I think and it’s interesting to see them take to a course Miracles uh because we go there and we have them in

51:29

our uh workshops and it’s it’s really an interesting phenomenon uh to see that’s

51:35

neat that’s neat have have you by any chance seen the was it extraordinary attorney woo it’s it’s it’s a series on

51:41

on I think it’s on Amazon or Netflix any it’s it’s this um um attorney who who

51:48

basically oh what’s the what’s the term um any anyway but if you haven’t seen it

51:54

you might enjoy it it it B basically uh exemplifies the idea that that uh you

51:59

know there’s a w a wisdom in places you wouldn’t expect it kind of thing I’ll just leave leave it at that okay can you

52:06

title again the extraordinary attorney woo uh yeah I think that’s what it is I I’ll I’ll I’ll send you the link so I’ll

52:12

put it I’ll look it up yeah yeah I’ll find it it’s it’s fun and she also has a thing about whales and whenever she gets

52:18

inspired sparred these whales go floating by in the back it’s just a lot of fun anyway

52:25

anyway it’s kind of a hoot but it’s right up my alley fly around in the background but I I want to go back from

52:32

it to the South about the play about the how hardworking they are yes yes this

52:38

reminds me of do you remember in I’m sure you do but in The Sound of Music

52:43

the movie of course the Musical one of my favorite musical movies of all time the important message Maria was

52:52

trying to get across to Captain Von chop about how the children need time for

52:58

play how they had to March the grounds really strictly breathing deeply you

53:03

know and March the grounds and and she kept going excuse me sir when is when is their play time you know when is their

53:09

time to play she kept having to and he would have none of it until she got through to him that it just reminds me

53:17

of the course of the seriousness that we can take the world so and ourselves so seriously we need to

53:25

play time is part of that laughter right to remember that we all need that play time to absolutely AB like a little kid

53:32

not forget that sense of wonderment that that that keeps us that innocence that

53:38

that’s like a part of a quality of innocence is to be playful is to to

53:43

laugh which is to be playful remember to laugh and so it’s sort like that that Zen beginner’s mind isn’t it where where

53:50

when you’re in that frame of mind when you just stop long enough to notice things um there’s there is that um

53:59

playfulness I was thinking that kind of ties into what you were just talking about a little earlier about you know instead of waking up and dreading oh now

54:08

this is there’s all these horrible things was what if it’s like well wow I get to look at my mind and discover new

54:13

ways to forgive each day things that I wouldn’t have uh that would have been you

54:18

know horrific things before but now I can learn to to not just blow out of the

54:25

water but just see the watch them kind of dissolve of them by themselves with with holy spirit’s help not all at once

54:31

but just you know a little bit more each day right yeah right yeah and uh you

54:36

know sometimes you know just the simple things can help you make a big difference it’s like Einstein uh one of

54:44

his favorite things to do was just to go have an ice cream cone it’s like one of

54:50

his favorite things and he’s if you had a tough uh you know mathematic equation

54:55

to figure out or to express something and he couldn’t do it and he started to get upset he’d go have an ice cream cone

55:02

and by the way uh once he I remember he’s having a hard time I read about this and uh he he tripped in his ice

55:09

cream cone fell onto the ground and he actually burst into tears now because he was having such a

55:17

hard time and I was thinking if you didn’t know who he was right and you saw this old man

55:24

weeping because he dropped his ice cream con probably wouldn’t have been too

55:29

impressed you know so it just goes to show anybody can have a bad day exactly

55:35

exactly yeah that’s so innocent though like yeah that he enjoyed ice cream so

55:42

much that I mean there’s an innocence behind that though a rawness that he could just I don’t know show that

55:49

emotion or not just because he was Einstein doesn’t mean that he’s you know

55:54

this perfect being either and he can get upset too or get we are like little children we’re all like these little

56:00

children we want our ice cream we’ want our the ego wants it’s cake the ego wants it’s ice cream but we’re all like

56:07

that we all have that part of the mind but there’s an innocence to the idea of

56:13

remembering we are children of God we’re part of God we but we’re still we’re we

56:21

we still have a child in us that’s learning and growing right as we undo the ego you know until

56:28

we grow into mature spiritual adults you know we’re we’re children you

56:34

know and it’s I think it’s good it’s a healthy perspective to kind of keep that in mind so we don’t keep thinking we’re

56:41

we’re further along than we might be and and look maybe we we are further along and sometimes we feel like the course

56:47

says you know we’re not but we really are and then vice versa we might be not

56:53

as far as we think yet we really have made progress we don’t know how to measure do we no we’re

56:59

like to we just can’t judge it our vces on our Retreats we we get mixed up it says right we get you know it’s like uh

57:06

the course says you know children don’t assume that they know everything uh you know they’ll ask questions you know but

57:13

which is what we need to do that’s what it means to become like little children where you’re willing to have the Holy

57:18

Spirit explained things to you instead of assuming you’re the one who knows everything because you don’t

57:25

right yeah right we assume so much don’t we that we we think we have it figured out and that there I was just flipping

57:32

through it I had the page turned something that uh um I must have left a bit so was basically the quote about how

57:39

you know we we assume that we our understanding is a powerful contribution

57:46

to the truth and makes it what it is it’s like right right wait a minute you and then and then nowhere nowhere in the

57:51

course does as Ken wapnick points out does does Jesus ever refer to us as adults you know it’s like I mean it’s

57:59

like okay well okay so but that’s actually a good thing I I that’s how I look at us if if if that means if if

58:04

we’re really just babes then that means we really can’t afford to just look with

58:10

fresh eyes on everything and see the potential for forgiveness that maybe we overlooked so many times in so many ways

58:17

yeah true and I and to go back to your uh what you said earlier about we could

58:22

choose to wake up every day and use that part of the course that says you know H

58:28

how many opportunities we have to Gladden ourselves how many that we do actually end up resisting or but we have

58:36

so many opportunities to Gladden ourselves I like that because it remind what if we woke up every day with that

58:43

thought um instead of I remember Ken one said instead of waking up and saying damn it here I go

58:49

again damn here I go again but instead replace that with wow

58:55

okay let’s see what today right I mean you can still decide the kind of day you want to have as the course says and

59:00

rules for decision but what if something does go we choose wrongly throughout the

59:06

day well okay one option remember our other choice is we can choose to use it

59:11

as an opportunity to make happy to gladen ourselves to forgive which is to forgive and remember the truth yeah to

59:18

show you uh how much I’ve yeah changed when I was in my 20s uh because I got on

59:23

a spiritual path Maybe when I was around uh 27 before that in my 20s the alarm

59:29

clock would go off in the morning and I would go ground hard day right yeah that’s

59:36

how enthusiastic I was about life you know I hat life I hated people I hated

59:42

God yeah uh you know I didn’t know how God could allow all these terrible things to happen to good people and one

59:49

of the real revelations in my life was to realize that he didn’t have anything to do with it and that he was still

59:55

perfect love yeah you and uh boy that changed everything yeah but man I I used

1:00:01

to just say today the alarm poot goes off and it’s like first thing always

1:00:08

thought that comes into my mind was Jesus you’re in charge so right from the very first

1:00:14

second of every day in my mind Jesus is in charge my day and of course what we

1:00:20

do is a result of what we think so if he’s in charge my thoughts you know I’m probably going to be

1:00:26

okay I laugh at myself when I say that and then I forget during the day and I completely like the egos in charge and

1:00:33

then I um I just laugh I just have to remember to laugh and then I go oh yeah my my every day I do wake up saying that

1:00:42

and then as probably as most of us do I Won’t Say I’m not trying to put words in people’s mouths but sometimes things

1:00:47

might show up and then you forget that goal you forget that Jesus is in charge or you forget that it’s easy to forget

1:00:53

that sometimes so but we can be patient and gentle with ourselves and just come back to it we key is patience and

1:01:01

gentleness and compassion and not judge just go oh so I

1:01:06

forgot okay I can choose again choose again choose again yeah by the way I just want to mention that I think I can

1:01:13

honestly say uh today that I love God so

1:01:19

sometimes we forget how far uh the journey has been you know uh to go from

1:01:25

hating God to loving God that’s something that’s that’s quite a shift yeah you know and I like the quote this

1:01:32

isn’t from of course but it’s more uh the self-help type movement but uh

1:01:37

there’s a past version of you that is so proud of how far you’ve

1:01:42

come because you know if you could look back if you could go back to the past and be that person and see how far You’

1:01:48

come you might be surprised you might be very pleasantly surprised so we we

1:01:53

should always be beating us ourselves up because we’re not perfect and and after

1:02:00

that one could say there’s a future aspect saying encouraging saying look how far

1:02:07

you are right encouraging us to say hey look what you have become you know and

1:02:13

there’s that version of us because in the illusion there’s a self fully

1:02:20

enlightened version of ourselves within the illusion as well so it’s like you

1:02:25

have that future and past self but they can both act as right as what you know

1:02:32

just to tie into what you’re were saying about the past though there would also be the other aspect the future also going hey what’s there to worry about

1:02:40

because look look what’s happening you’re you’re already at home in God you know my wise self the higher right holy

1:02:47

spirit Part of Yourself is saying you’re already there our inner arttin and purses are already seeing dream of Exile

1:02:55

is over right so right the dream of Exile is over so there’s that voice too so that’s I love that because there’s

1:03:01

also that future aspect that we can even though still time is in the realm of

1:03:06

Illusion it doesn’t mean it can’t be useful sometimes yeah when disappearance

1:03:12

uh came out I would hear from these really mystical people like Richard SMY

1:03:18

he was the editor of uh nosis magazine at the time in New York me he said you I

1:03:23

really like that idea where you could get help from your future self to become

1:03:29

yourself and uh yeah there are some really mystical people who were taken with that idea I mean I I wasn’t even

1:03:36

thinking much about those things when uh when the book happened in fact I learned a lot about things I knew nothing about

1:03:43

I didn’t know about much at all about ascended masters or anything like that I know St Germain had been appearing at

1:03:49

Mount Shasta for you know the last 80 years or or whatever just it I didn’t know much about a lot of things that are

1:03:56

in the book and uh by the way that’s just uh another reminder to me that I

1:04:05

never would have understood a course Miracles without the way it was explained to me and your books and both

1:04:13

of your books Gary have been such you know openers you know can can openers I

1:04:18

openers C certainly for me in 2007 when in Ashlin Oregon when I found the book

1:04:24

Rogue Valley metaphysical Library it’s like I’ve got to go back and reread the course how did I miss all this yeah that

1:04:32

you know God doesn’t have anything to do with Duality it’s all about forgiveness how did how did I read all three of

1:04:39

those books and miss that those key ideas you know hey I hear you man I I need people uh today who are doing the

1:04:45

course like you go to a study group or something they have been studying the course for H five or ten years who don’t

1:04:53

know that it’s about forgiveness yeah yeah but once you understand that you

1:04:58

see it everywhere in the course it’s all through the course says forgiveness is the central theme that runs throughout

1:05:05

salvation holding all of its parts and meaningful relationships the course it runs

1:05:11

directed and its outcome sure it’s like forgiveness is the glue that holds the

1:05:17

whole thing together and it’s actually possible to study the course for years

1:05:22

and T see that because well first of all your ego doesn’t want to see it yeah so

1:05:29

uh it it’s good to uh have things Dawn on you because it it opens up a whole

1:05:35

new way of looking at the course you keep getting it on deeper and deeper levels and uh it’s like my jokes you

1:05:42

keep getting them on deeper and deeper Lev and uh it’s it’s fun it’s not just

1:05:49

work it can be a lot of fun I I think my favorite joke of yours is about the talking dog and and and and you know he

1:05:58

don’t believe any of that he’s he’s such a liar that I love that one that is a good one because but that’s that’s the

1:06:04

one I immediately realized oh yeah we’re all such pathological Liars here we’re all you know telling each other and

1:06:09

ourselves that we’re something that we’re not you know it’s like right right yeah yeah yeah well you know whenever uh

1:06:15

you know we call somebody a fraud or a fake well we all are yeah costume 247

1:06:22

literally stole part we thought we stole part of the Mind from God it’s like my teacher said to me Gary you took it you

1:06:28

got to give it back longterm loan but it’s it’s

1:06:34

overdue yeah yeah we know um since since uh I do

1:06:42

want to plug something because oh please do please do since relationships are

1:06:47

gosh the meat of how we practice forgiveness for most of us at least I mean we’re in relationship with

1:06:53

something all the time and a vital vital part of the course vital part of the course special relationships you know it

1:06:59

talks about that and how we can transform them into holy relationships um for those that don’t know I did

1:07:06

release a new book um and back in June called I’m gonna show it here um because

1:07:12

I believe it could be truly helpful for relation people in relationship with whoever you’re in relationship with but

1:07:18

it’s called Spiritual Coupling: A Guidebook for Experiencing a Holy Relationship and it can be found on on

1:07:25

Amazon that’s that’s me on the left that’s Gary yeah well see we’re yeah it

1:07:32

shows two equal beings there but holding a heart um because love is what holds us

1:07:38

together not fear love is what holds us together and that’s when we remember

1:07:43

that we can transform our relationships into holy ones we remember it’s the love that’s real and anyway my book um talks

1:07:52

about all aspects of relationship but it does make a distinction between the special relationship and holy one as

1:07:58

well so it can be found on Amazon other books if anybody um finds that topic of

1:08:06

interest thank you yeah and and all of your books are wonderful and all highly recommended so yeah in fact um

1:08:13

originally we were going to write that book together I and then AR H kind of

1:08:19

like intervened and said well no wait a minute Gary we want you to do the fifth book with us

1:08:24

and Cindy is supposed to write the one about relationships you know she’s the one with the uh psychological background

1:08:31

you know and uh you and she’s done hundreds of uh counseling sessions for

1:08:36

people and uh she was the one to write that book and our that person wanted me

1:08:42

to get busy on on this one in order I think a lot of it is to address just all the madness that’s been going on just to

1:08:48

remind people what it’s for yeah and how to do it yeah it’s all perfectly orchestrated yep

1:08:56

yeah yeah well it’s been amazing to have this

1:09:02

discussion oh and there’s so many things we could could go on with but but but thank you I know it could go on and on I

1:09:08

mean there’s so much to talk about but I I just want to thank you for all that you do for the course oh well likewise

1:09:14

so much uh and you know I know you had a lot to do with the online version of the course of Miracles and actually I I was

1:09:22

more of a cheerleader and what Felix and and the rest of the FIP team did on that but because when that started um I kind

1:09:29

of finished what I was doing with the the reworking of the FP website but uh but I I use the the web edition of the

1:09:35

course all the time and just oh it’s so helpful yes it sure is I remember the

1:09:41

old days uh when I was writing my first book there there was nothing there was no not even any concordance yet but the

1:09:48

course and uh they said uh you know I said well you going to tell me where all these quotes are right and said uh no we

1:09:54

want you to find them and uh that was their way of tricking a lazy guy into studying uh even more uh which I did but

1:10:04

uh that boy today that online version is so helpful the website so thank you thank

1:10:12

you for being a part of that Bruce well like I say cheer cheerleading yes for sure but uh uh Kudos particularly to to

1:10:19

Felix alala and and all the folks at FIP that supported that yeah them as well absolutely yeah yeah yeah

1:10:27

you know I’m glad that the uh that the foundation called themselves the

1:10:33

foundation for inner peace because it’s like we’ve said before the people of the world will never live in peace until the

1:10:41

people of the world have inner peace so maybe it’s even more important than we realized at the time we have to

1:10:48

reverse the reversal of uh cause and effect and put the cause back in the mind mind right yeah yeah right yeah so

1:10:57

important and and and both of you have made such an enormous contributions to so many people in in that regard so I

1:11:05

only know that enjoy it yeah I only know that because people tell me because I I

1:11:11

don’t feel like I’ve done anything you know so I I don’t even feel like I’m the author

1:11:17

of the books i’ like maybe onethird of it so uh but at the same time it makes

1:11:24

uh feel good people think I’ve done something the only way we we really get

1:11:29

sometimes that it what we’re doing is helpful is the feedback when we’re doing our whether it’s you know people

1:11:36

emailing us or our in-person events we’re doing the book signings or that’s when we really get the feedback and we

1:11:42

go oh wow yeah you know that I’m so happy that that person really you know

1:11:48

felt helped by that or that that’s when we really get the impact

1:11:54

you know that the teachings have on people you know doesn’t have to be through us it could be through anybody

1:11:59

but that’s how we’re really grateful for that feedback because it tells us wow this is really meaningful for people and

1:12:06

it’s been really helpful and that’s it’s a pleasure truly a pleasure to be a part of this path well it’s yeah and it

1:12:15

benefits it benefits us too you know it benefit anyone who’s you know teaching

1:12:20

it because you’re learning it you’re learning it as well so we just appreciate it and being a part of the

1:12:26

path yeah and I know that without uh course of Miracles my life would have been pretty sad so uh boy gosh what a

1:12:34

difference yeah yeah I I I’m thinking back 16 years ago when du crossed my

1:12:39

path and I’m thinking what would have happened had I not found that I think my life would

1:12:45

have been pretty different and uh I mean I was familiar with the course but it was kind of a you know became a back burner every once in

1:12:52

a while I pick it up kind of thing not anymore as Inspector clusive would

1:12:58

say it’s pretty much a constant companion so yeah whether digital or

1:13:04

tree wear yeah yep so yeah well gosh I mean I Bruce I love our conversations oh

1:13:12

likewise like I know we’ll do this again oh absolutely absolutely do this again and uh yeah it’s really really enjoyable

1:13:21

thank you for the time and uh look forward to sharing the next one yeah too

1:13:26

yeah thanks thank you you’re you’re a real friend and we appreciate and a wonderful contributor to the course

1:13:32

Community as well thanks to both